Suggestion Thread

[NinjaDeathStrike]

This topic is designed to allow you, the members, to make suggestions about the rules, the ban list, or the site in general. While you are free to express your opinions, please keep these rules in mind:

1) No flaming: No name calling, personal attacks, harsh descriptions (avoid words like stupid), or otherwise malicious behavior.

2) Justify your position: If you have a suggestion, explain why you think it is a good or bad idea. Use specific examples. If you are challenging another idea, do the same. Prove your point, don't just rant.

3) Staff have the final say: This thread is designed to get your opinions out there, but at the end of the day. The staff members have the final say on any issue. Respect them.

[Shark]

Uber list suggestion: Volcarona

(This is a suggestion, with the idea of sparking a small discussion, with little direct nay-saying, and only points. If you just want to say 'it's not that bad' or 'learn to counter it', don't post in this. I want only direct reasons for this, just as I am not saying 'I have issues with it ban it!!', on that note: I have KO'd them before, but with much difficulty, even with rock moves, and I'll explain why.)

Volcerona isn't usually a lead, and it usually comes in at a safe switch, or in a bad matchup*, or both. This allows Volcerona to set up while the opponant switches in, getting +1 spatk, +1sdef and +1 spd. this allows it to outspeed most pokemon, with it's decent base speed (100), tank a large amount of spatk moves with base 105 sdef, and O-2hko most neutrally effective opponants.

With that boost up, it can outspeed most pokemon that can hit it with a rock move to go for the x4 damage, dealing massive damage to them, and possibly burning them. It is bulky enough that it may survive a x4 hit from a rock move (Assuming the low accuracy rock move hits it, with the most accurate rock moves being Spatk powered, and that is well defended against already) and has a 30% chance of burning the pokemon, making the opponant much less of a threat.
The other option is a physical water type, which are rather far and few: Swampert, Gyarados, Feraligator with Aqua tail (that nobody uses), Stone Edge (not water, but relivent), and Waterfall for their STAB SE physical hits, which they can still get burned using. Again, it is bulky enough to take a x2 hit in my experience with it, so that isn't much of a threat either.

*Bad matchup:
With it's unique type combination, it has a decent number of resistances, and a small number of weaknesses, that being:

Weaknesses:
Water x2
Flying x2
Rock x4

Resistances:
Grass x.25
Ice x.5
Fighting x.5
Bug x.5
Steel x.5

It also has Super Effectve STAB moves against:
Steel
Grass
Bug
Ice
Psychic
Dark

And it's STABs can only be effectivly blocked with one type (ignoring type combinations):
Fire
(with off the top of my head: the only especially bulky Fire types being Torkoal (somewhat), and Heatran.

To summerize: it has great resistances, well distributed stats, and is hard to block in getting set up, allowing it to do large amounts of damage to a team, without much difficulty.
These are the reasons of which I belive that Volcarona should be on our ban list.

[Kaio]

Volc pretty beast with a quiver dance, i can agree with that. Im not sure either way, i normally have a scarfed Heracross to Stone edge it, or Straptor to OHKO it with a Brave Bird. However i will say im not opposed to it being banned, just on the fence about it.

[Silver]

I agree volcarona should be banned. from my battles with them, its a beast in sp.atk and sp.def. it took me over 6 muddy waters and a thunderwave to kill it, when it had a shell smash it was a tank and an attacker. if this thing has a shell smash/quiver dance and rest. this thing could take countless SE attacks, and it can easily sweep a team unless you bring the right pokemon.

This thing has its stats in the right place and can kill many pokemon/sweep with ease with the right set up.

[NinjaDeathStrike]

Off the top of my head, here are a few solid counters/checks to Volcorona:

Counters:
Heatran (probably the best Vol counter in the game)
Rotom-W (Resist both stabs and immune to hp ground if it's running it)
Jellisent (Only it it's running taunt to prevent further set-up)

Checks:
Azumaril (A CB Aqua Jet will put it down quickly, but you have to predict correctly as coming in on a bug attack is going to hurt)
Scarfed Terrakion (109 Base speed means it will outspeed even after a Quiver Dance and easily OHKOs with Stone Edge, if it hits)
Sracfed Staraptor (?) (Maybe, if you win the speed tie)

The other pokemon that have SE attacks are generally either too slow or too weak to kill Volcorona before they're dealt with, though things with Waterfall, Rock Slide, and Stone edge may be able to deal with it (none of these mores are 'contact' moves, and so cannot activate Flame Body I believe). In the end, I would support it's ban, but don't think it's as clearly broken as some other thing. The ultimate question is, are there enough variety in checks and counters that you guys think it's not hurting your choice in team building?

[Pope]

I do not support it's ban. Look, just because a Pokemon is hard to defeat doesn't mean you should just ban it right off the back. I seriously hope this isn't becoming a I can't defeat that Pokemon, so ban it. Sorry, but being a Pokemon trainer, you should out how to work around Pokemon to defeat it. It the long run, it seems like limiting an opponent's options to give certain advantages. I can understand the legends and weather starting Pokemon and Pokemon they support, but sorry, not buying into the banning Volcarona idea.

[Shark]

Pope, You really missed what I was trying to do with this. It's partially to ban a pokemon that I find is overpowered and can turn the tides of a battle without having to do much, but also partially to test out a new system of banning something I want to try out. I want people to argue this pokemon out to make sure it is an issue for everyone. Also, I didn't just say 'it's kicked my ass, let's ban it!' I said it has repeatedly delt major damage to me everytime I've faced it, and then explained why it has done so. I don't want this place to get to the point of 'OH IT'S A THREAT! BAN IT!!' I just want to ban pokemon who automatically give a person an advantage without having it themselves or spacific counter to it.

Related to this technique I was trying: xkcd.com/106/

Perhaps we should have a vote. We have a small enough community where we could easily decide (And redecide if you wish) if pokemon should be banned (aside from legendaries) as a whole. That way the majority of the people on the website have the pull on the rules, so they have the most fun... But this is merely a suggestion, seeing as Neutral has someone that directly agrees with him.

Back on the arguement:
I agree that there are checks and counters to it, Ninja, and may I add Tentacruel to the list: with high sdef and it resists both of Volcerona's STAB moves, it should wall it nicely.

I just think my point is valid because I don't think we should need to have X counter to Y threat on our teams. There is much more to be said here though, but I'm losing my train of thought at the moment, so I'll have to come back to this later, but I want to get this post posted.

[chaosruler10]

I agree with Pope, Volcarona shouldn't be banned. Yes it is a Sp Def & Atk beast pokemon, but all you need is to play smart when someone has it on their team. Its basically a predict & preparation battle since you have to know when their gonna switch it on you & quiver dance. If you can get the prediction right, then Volcarona shouldn't be a problem.

[Shark]

Chaos, ususally from what I've seen, as I have stated, Volcerona is switched in on a safe switch, negating your point.

[chaosruler10]

Thus it is ur job not to give them that safe switch. Its the same with any pokemon that sets up.

[NinjaDeathStrike]

Jul 15, 2011 20:19:19 GMT -5 chaosruler10 said:

Thus it is ur job not to give them that safe switch. Its the same with any pokemon that sets up.

Anytime you kill a pokemon, your opponent gets a free switch, so the only way to do that is to never kill any of their pokemon. You'd be better off providing other things that can deal with it.

Saying 'just predict around it perfectly every time' isn't really a valid point.

[Pope]

I don't think either is banning a Pokemon just because you can't figure out it's pattern or because of it's stats either. Wish life was that simple, can't figure out a strategy to beat something, so ban it. That would be nice. Agree with Chaos on his point 100%

[NinjaDeathStrike]

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against Volcorona's banning (I actually pointed out several solid checks and counters it has).

To those defending it though, I would suggest providing better examples than just saying 'deal with it'. Provide examples of good pokemon that can beat it or give specific examples of how it's not broken. Shark gave a very good argument and so far your responses haven't really done anything to counter that. He pointed out that it's very hard to counter after just one turn of set-up (which it is), and no one has done anything to counter that argument. Shark hasn't said he "can't figure out it's pattern" he's saying that even if you know it's pattern, it's still likely to sweep you, and that's why it's broken.

If you want to argue that it's not broken, you need to know what sets it normally runs, and then think about pokemon or strategies that can shut down the majority of these sets.

[Shark]

Jul 14, 2011 18:17:10 GMT -5 NinjaDeathStrike said:

Off the top of my head, here are a few solid counters/checks to Volcorona:

Counters:
Heatran (probably the best Vol counter in the game)
Rotom-W (Resist both stabs and immune to hp ground if it's running it)
Jellisent (Only it it's running taunt to prevent further set-up)

Checks:
Azumaril (A CB Aqua Jet will put it down quickly, but you have to predict correctly as coming in on a bug attack is going to hurt)
Scarfed Terrakion (109 Base speed means it will outspeed even after a Quiver Dance and easily OHKOs with Stone Edge, if it hits)
Sracfed Staraptor (?) (Maybe, if you win the speed tie)

The other pokemon that have SE attacks are generally either too slow or too weak to kill Volcorona before they're dealt with, though things with Waterfall, Rock Slide, and Stone edge may be able to deal with it (none of these mores are 'contact' moves, and so cannot activate Flame Body I believe). In the end, I would support it's ban, but don't think it's as clearly broken as some other thing. The ultimate question is, are there enough variety in checks and counters that you guys think it's not hurting your choice in team building?

For the checks, that's a rather spacific bit you'd need. I'm certain there are more that we haven't thought of, but so far the pattern for those is Scarf+power attack.
To argue spacifics (which I think isn't nessisarily important but I'll say it anyway)

Two of the three checks example have only a chance to pull off their KO.
Stone edge is so relyable and all. (I know that's not much of an argument against it but I'm not going to put effort into spacifics, this arguement is more big picture.
and speed tie is even more relyable: 50% success.
And Azumarril is a rather spacific pokemon, with Huge Power and a choice band giving him a max of 654 attack. (assuming adamant, because who would run jolly with Aqua Jet?)

The next best water poke with aqua jet would be sharpedo, which if it got poked by a +1 of either of the attacks wouldn't fair too well.

After that would be Kabutops, which would probably be KO'd from a bug buzz, especially after a quiver dance, but could tank fiery dance/fire blast/flamethrower rather well, even with it's poor spdef.
And the same for Carracosta

Feralligator may beable to come in and aqua jet but we're now down to 339 attack, so it may not OKHO. I'll stop my list here.


But IMO that's nitpicking, so feel free to disregard it.

Note: I started this discussion in hopes that we could develop an organized banning system based on every player who want's to contribute with debate by both sides to thougouly consider and decide if a pokemon is truely too overpowered or limits team building to too much of an extreme for the game to continue to be fun for the majority of the people.

That being said, a 'just deal with it' attitude doesn't do well in this environment, because there isn't much reason behind it. It is pretty much 'You should just gain the skill or take the loss.'

That being said, I take my losses. I take them like a man, but if something gives an unfair advantage to the other side, I believe it should be removed from the gameplay (Similar to how stealth rocks were. I honestly don't care about them at all, and I could say just deal with them, but I could understand that people like RT had major issues with them, considering he has a full fire gym team that takes a quarter of their HP on entry, but I digress.