Substitute, limited or not limited?

[Dash]

May 15, 2010 21:18:02 GMT -5 NinjaDeathStrike said:

May 15, 2010 20:29:39 GMT -5 Silver said:

can we do the same thing with the move pain split? only 1 pokemon can have it and only use it ONCE?

it pisses me off because they heal themsleves

You see, this is what I was worried about. If we ban substitute then we open the floodgates to ban more moves. I vehemently oppose this proposal. I will type up reasons as to why soon, but I vote absolutely no.

This.

[NinjaDeathStrike]

Ok guys here is my argument for not limiting it:

Firstly, Substitute can't kill anything. It's a non-damaging attack. It can't be spammed or stacked (like double team or sleep). It can only be passed via baton pass, which not a lot of pokemon carry.

The main reason not to limit it though is this: it's not broken. Substitute was designed to scout your opponents moves and switches and that's what it does. There is however, a very easy way to beat it. Just Attack! If your opponent uses substitute as you switch, yes you will have to take an attack, but if you attack back the substitute is broken. Then, if you just keep attacking, the pokemon trying to use substitute will lose it health, while being completely unable to attack you back if it wants a sub. The only time substitution can beat you is if you continually switch out of a pokemon you know is going to sub or if you try using status effects. In these cases, you predicted incorrectly and you can't blame the other battler for taking advantage of that. Substitute forces you to predict and play better, and that's why I don't think it should be limited.

[Sir Derpington III]

...People, before you go complaining about Pain Split. You have to understand the main reason why Substitute is more of a threat.

Since Substitute allows you to block moves, this makes it so you can heal all your HP back. Once done you can re-use substitute, attack, without gaining more damage. Even if you do, get damage, you can just repeat the cycle. Like I said before, I am ok with just 1 Pokemon using this attack. Since that is a challenge. But using half your team with substitute is a cheap advantage. This makes it too tedious to battle the opponent and a cheap way to attack and heal.

Pain Split on the other hand, you are not protected from hits. You can still be attacked (as well as out damaging the healed amount). Also, you can still be killed. You all make it sound like Pain Split is the end of the world, it is not. Pain Split doesn't even heal all your HP back. In fact, Pain Split does not always work. It will only work if your HP is lower then the opponent.

[darkfire006]

okay i got an idea........
why not limit ALL moves like pain split(that lower your opponents hp and raise yours
AND
all those that block your opponent for multiple turns while alowing you to still attack

to having only on one pokemon per team
this will make eveyone happy
also it will keep us from having to many of these arguemnts
(this may be my last post of the evening)

[NinjaDeathStrike]

You can't heal all of you HP back though. Substitute takes 1/4 of your hp while leftovers only gives you 1/16 of your health back each turn. Therefore, the substitute must remain in place for FOUR FULL TURNS in order for the leftovers recovery to make up the health loss. Even with a Breloom with poison heal (which recovers 1/8 per turn) and leeched seed (recovery based on the opponent base hp), the opposing pokemon would have to have a huge base HP to completely make up the sub. Plus, if you switch out of leech seed, your opponent loses that recovery.

to restate: Full health - substitute + leftovers DOES NOT equal full health.

the math just doesn't add up.

[Sir Derpington III]

I didn't say only Leftovers, don't forget things such as Recover, Pain Split, Aqua Ring, Leech Seed, Drain attacks, and abilities such as Breloom's. With these moves you can make a Pokemon basically survive forever in a substitute, stacked with leftovers.


@darkfire, I just explained why Pain Split is not a big deal. It will not be discussed further, now drop it.

[NinjaDeathStrike]

May 15, 2010 21:48:25 GMT -5 darkfire006 said:

okay i got an idea........
why not limit ALL moves like pain split(that lower your opponents hp and raise yours
AND
all those that block your opponent for multiple turns while alowing you to still attack

to having only on one pokemon per team
this will make eveyone happy
also it will keep us from having to many of these arguemnts
(this may be my last post of the evening)

Again. This is going to get seriously out of hand. Another reason not to start limiting things. I would absolutely refuse to battle under these rules.

@neutral: A side from subseeders, whose whole point is to try and maximize recovery, most of the pokemon who run it are sweepers. Here there is another reason substitute isn't broken. In order for sweepers to be effective, they need to hit a large number of pokemon for super effective damage or strong neutral STAB attacks. If a pokemon runs substitute AND a recovery move that only gives it two attacking slots, making it easier to wall.

As I showed you in my last post, even Breloom with poison heal and leech seed can't completely make up the HP loss from sub.

[darkfire006]

right however if you have another hp reviver going(leech seed) then you may end up with full
or if you do this:
you use substitute
other guy uses random move and i epic fails
you use restore or ect.
otherperson uses attack (breaks sub)
you use attack
repeat

[NinjaDeathStrike]

May 15, 2010 22:05:54 GMT -5 darkfire006 said:

right however if you have another hp reviver going(leech seed) then you may end up with full
or if you do this:
you use substitute
other guy uses random move and i epic fails
you use restore or ect.
otherperson uses attack (breaks sub)
you use attack
repeat

Then eventually you run out of subs. You're not doing any damage during this time so your opponent just has to stall you out.

PLEASE understand, Lefties + Leech Seed DOES NOT EQUAL instant recovery unless you're facing something with a huge amount of HP. You guys are arguing that the opponent could be impossible to take down because they could have, Sub, Lefties, Recover, Leech Seed, etc. all going at the same time. Do you have any idea how difficult all of that is to get going at the same time? All the while you're not doing any damage to your opponent.

[Seyla]

I am against banning moves in general besides DT.

[Sir Derpington III]

May 15, 2010 22:18:38 GMT -5 Seyla said:

I am against banning moves in general besides DT.

I am not sure if you are mis-understanding the situation. But this move will not be banned, it will be limited. Just like how sleep, and self evasion is limited.

[darkfire006]

May 15, 2010 22:13:05 GMT -5 NinjaDeathStrike said:

May 15, 2010 22:05:54 GMT -5 darkfire006 said:

right however if you have another hp reviver going(leech seed) then you may end up with full
or if you do this:
you use substitute
other guy uses random move and i epic fails
you use restore or ect.
otherperson uses attack (breaks sub)
you use attack
repeat

Then eventually you run out of subs. You're not doing any damage during this time so your opponent just has to stall you out.

PLEASE understand, Lefties + Leech Seed DOES NOT EQUAL instant recovery unless you're facing something with a huge amount of HP. You guys are arguing that the opponent could be impossible to take down because they could have, Sub, Lefties, Recover, Leech Seed, etc. all going at the same time. Do you have any idea how difficult all of that is to get going at the same time? All the while you're not doing any damage to your opponent.

i know that it isnt
also if you look at my list...........you get in a attack

[NinjaDeathStrike]

You're right drafkfire. I misread it. I apologize.

You get a free move because of your opponents mistake. Why are we trying to punish this? How is it not fair? You out-predicted your opponent and got the upper hand. I don't understand why it's not fair. It seems to me that you just want people to send out pokemon and have them hammer away at each other until one of them dies, rinse and repeat. That's no fun and there's no reward for anticipating your opponent's moves. Substitute rewards players who predict correctly. I don't think that should be discouraged.

[chaosruler10]

I vote against limiting this move

[Sir Derpington III]

I will try to solve this issue once and for all by saying this;


Substitute is now banned in my gym.